INTERVIEWER: How many of the trained soldier reflexes still work in a situation like that?
A. SWOFFORD: They worked-but I think they worked a little slower than they ideally should have-because there was that stop for me, like-wait a second, is that an artillery round that's just exploded? Ten feet in front of my fighting hole? And what does that mean, in a way [LAUGHS
INTERVIEWER: Does adrenaline override fear at that moment?
A. SWOFFORD: I think fear is part of it-fear is used in order to help propel the fighter through a position-, through the fight. So fear can't be forgotten, in concert with like, adrenaline, and the training that's happened.
INTERVIEWER: If you're infantry and you're faced with an artillery attack, how do you respond?
A. SWOFFORD: Someone called all clear because the gas call was bogus. And we pulled off our gas masks-
INTERVIEWER: How do you know that that gas call is bogus?
A. SWOFFORD: Well-supposedly they had [LAUGHS] a detector, but [LAUGHS] I was probably a little reluctant to take off my gas mask because, , how do they know. So I took my gas mask off my partner Johnny Rotten and I spotted the enemy observation post across the way on a ridge-used a map to work up the coordinates, and I worked up a call for fire, which is a radio call that you put into the fire center, and I was going to request that some planes drop bombs. And a captain came over and like took the handset from me cause he thought it was his call. and we sat, and through my spotter scope I watched the bombs drop on this position, and then that first exchange was complete for me. That was combat, I knew that my combat action ribbon was coming, but I didn't really know anything else.
INTERVIEWER: Did you already see the consequences of an air strike there?
A. SWOFFORD: It was far away, I saw it through my scope, that the sight of the ridge turned to dust, essentially.
INTERVIEWER: Is that some form of excitement or is it also very technical?
A. SWOFFORD: It wasn't just technical, , guys were excited about it, because these were the sons of bitches that had just shot artillery rounds at us, so that the element of revenge was then realized, . But at the same time, , a sadness, for me-cause I was looking through the scope, and, who knows, two or three men, were now dead.
INTERVIEWER: How familiar do the film images in your head make you with combat?
A. SWOFFORD: Once the combat starts, the movie memories are doing anything anymore. They're in your subconscious, but I don't think they help. It's like, "Oh, fuck, that's an artillery round, and it's just exploded."
INTERVIEWER: What was the first time you actually encountered Iraqi personnel?
A. SWOFFORD: The next day after the artillery rounds my sniper team was inserted in a position where we could observe the obstacle belt and minefield and observe Iraqis coming across, cause they were coming across and running missions. So then, ostensibly we would know the safe passage routes. But we were on patrol, the rest of my scout team was inserting us, and we messed up somehow, we were either too loud, someone stayed on the radio too long, and our location was found, and we were shot up with rockets. INTERVIEWER: How long does it take in these moments for the disorientation to pass?
A. SWOFFORD: There's no time for reflection. For instance, after those artillery rounds the mission was, okay, let's find these guys. And so then, I was back inside of a task. And the task was find these guys and kill them. And so that, I was back inside with something that I knew, which was a map and a compass, and a spotter's scope, and the radio-like I knew those things better than I knew anything.
INTERVIEWER: Is this the security then that you talked about in the beginning? The security that the Marine training gives you?
A. SWOFFORD: Yeah, that's the security, cause like, the rounds come, you don't know what the heck's gonna happen when they come, but then you respond. You're gonna pick your rifle up, put it on your shoulder, and you're gonna fire. You're gonna grab a map and a compass, and a pair of binoculars, you're gonna find the guys who are gonna pick up the radio and make the call.
INTERVIEWER: When you later moved through these fields where the bombing happened before, how horrible is it?
A. SWOFFORD: There's a, , wretched smell. During our hop north I at one point we stopped for meals and I walked over a rise, to take a piss, and on the other side of it was an Iraqi encampment that looked like they probably stopped for the night, small convoy, some troop carriers. And everyone there was dead. And the smell of their corpses was-I could smell their bodies, I wretched into my mouth. I knew that I was seeing something that I never wanted to see, and that I would hope never to see again, . I sat down in this circle of men, and joined their tight dead circle, and it was a chilling, scary moment. But also a moment where I felt somewhat alive because I was so close to this death and it wasn't mine.
INTERVIEWER: Is it quick and sufferless death, when you're hit by a bomb or one of these missiles?
SWOFFORD: I don't think we know, I. I always hoped that when I saw the bodies, I hoped that they just died quickly, that they didn't suffer.
INTERVIEWER: How did your comrades react to seeing death?
A. SWOFFORD: There was a guy in my platoon who had a kind of sick reaction to a corpse that was near one of our bivouac sites. He took it upon himself to annihilate this corpse. He took a folding shovel and carved into this body, and took pictures of it, and was excited by this. This was after the war had ended. And for it him it was like his chance to kill. e was killing this thing that was already dead, but it was all that build-up, all that preparation, he had nowhere to put it, and he couldn't deal with it, and so he dealt with it by hacking into this corpse.
INTERVIEWER: Did you also encounter a lot of people who gave themselves up?
A. SWOFFORD: Oh, absolutely, after we breached the minefield and the obstacle belt, we were on our way north to more positions, and we'd come across an encampment of a group of men who'd surrendered and who'd been herded into a small area and had cuffs on, and concertina wire was wrapped around them. INTERVIEWER: How do you treat these POWs?
A. SWOFFORD: I never worked with POW's, but I kind of had a little more disdain for these men who'd surrendered than I did for like their peers who were up north who I might be fighting soon, because for me, there was a way in which they'd they were safe now and I wasn't safe, nor were their comrades who were up to the north-they'd left that fight to us. And they'd also , taken away that possibility of both killing them and being killed by them.
INTERVIEWER: Right. what do you think about the coming war in Iraq?
A. SWOFFORD: I think we're there for different reasons, and I think the-, the tenor, the tempo of, of-, global politics is different now. I think the movement to war might be a little faster, and right now I'm unhappy with how we're moving toward war as-as a citizen, as someone who will be in some ways, because I'm a citizen of this country, I'm accountable for how we act, and how we, how we treat other people, and how we work or don't work with the world, and that could, , I'm concerned for-because of what seems to be a willingness to leave diplomacy behind.
INTERVIEWER: What do you think is the main reason?
A. SWOFFORD: Yeah, I don't really know-I don't think it's just oil, and I don't think it's just to conquer the Middle East, I think it's less to do with , weapons of mass destruction than those other things. I think there's a way in which it-, Saddam Hussein is an easy target, because there was , 12 years of rhetoric that had been, , fired against him, and he's, he's probably, in terms of an army that is-a country that's currently an enemy that has an army that might be defeated fairly easily, he's like, the nber one guy. And as, in terms of, , a despicable character in world view, he's the guy, so he's convenient.
INTERVIEWER: Right. How did the Iraqi army strike you in terms of capability, in force, and also motivation, like that?
A. SWOFFORD: They weren't necessarily prepared, and certainly weren't motivated. I think a lot of that had to do with the six weeks of bombing that preceded the, the ground combat. If we hadn't bombed for six weeks, if we'd just bombed for a week, say, they would have been more willing to fight.
INTERVIEWER: And what shape do you think they are now?
A. SWOFFORD: I really can't say.
INTERVIEWER: Were you a patriot?
A. SWOFFORD: I think patriotism can move someone into the military, and can make them believe in their mission and in their service. But again when it comes down to the combat moment, the actual fighting- I don't think patriotism really does much. All tose flags, yellow ribbons, , you're going to be our heroes. It doesn't matter, because the people waving flags and yellow ribbons aren't behind you firing a rifle supporting you. They're in the States waving flags and yellow ribbons, and they don't help you.
INTERVIEWER: So is there a distinct disdain for civilians when you're out there?
A. SWOFFORD: Yeah, there's a lot of disdain, and it starts early. There's a real separation especially in the Marine Corps, which is what I know best-between the Marine and the Marine lifestyle, and civilians. Like, you're a Marine, you're tough, you're a mean, , fighting machine. And civilians are different than you-you're better than civilians. You protect civilians. They don't understand you and your savagery, and your brutality, because they're simple, and they don't understand what's necessary.
INTERVIEWER: What did you think the marines about politicians?
A. SWOFFORD: There's some disdain for those guys as well, cause they don't know, they've never hped a rucksack for 40 miles. They've never, , not had a shower for 45 days. , they've never had to fire a rifle from 1000 yards. So what can they know about what they're committing to me? They know nothing.
INTERVIEWER: How was it to come home?
A. SWOFFORD: Well yeah, there were parades.
INTERVIEWER: How did that make you feel?
A. SWOFFORD: Well we were, I wasn't ever in a parade. I purposefully missed the one that happened near my base. I showed up a day late for my leave after the war. We took buses back from the airfield where we landed, and it was about a 2 and a half hour, 3 hour drive through the desert and, we'd stop at these little towns and there were people on the roads cheering. It was really weird.
INTERVIEWER: You weren't proud of coming home?
A. SWOFFORD: Not really-I was uncomfortable with idea that I was a hero. I wasn't a hero, I jus had gone and done what I was supposed to do, and I wanted to forget it.
|